Gayle King in Conversation: Media, Resilience, and the Spring of 2020

⚠️ Spoiler Warning: This guide contains detailed spoilers for the entire novel. Proceed only if you've finished reading or are comfortable knowing the plot.

Summary

In May 2020, Judd Apatow sat down with Gayle King for a wide-ranging interview that opened with her work at O Magazine. King explained that the magazine’s founding mission, set by Oprah twenty years earlier, was to serve as a personal growth guide that met women where they were—not by promising quick fixes like “thin thighs in thirty days” but by encouraging self-acceptance and healing. She described many people as “wounded” and searching for ways to heal themselves and each other.

The conversation then turned to social media. Apatow noted that algorithms reward our worst instincts, pushing users toward increasingly extreme content. King agreed, observing that social media allows people to say things with no accountability, and that one negative comment can outweigh a hundred compliments. She invoked the Golden Rule—treating others as you want to be treated—as a principle that feels outdated but remains essential.

King shared her background: she majored in psychology and originally planned to become a child psychologist or a lawyer, but a college job at a TV station hooked her on news. She described how her preparation for interviews, especially with unpredictable subjects, has evolved. The R. Kelly interview was a key example. When Kelly became agitated and seemed ready to storm off, King remained seated, calmly looking at him and then at the chair, signaling she wasn’t going anywhere. He sat back down, and the interview continued. King said she never aims for “gotcha” interviews but believes difficult questions must be asked at the right time.

Apatow brought up the cycle of abuse, and King agreed that “hurt people hurt people,” but she stressed that at some point individuals must take responsibility for their actions, regardless of their past.

King then recalled her early career in the late 1970s, a time she described as “Anchorman-like.” She recounted an incident where a camera guy made a highly inappropriate comment to her when she was twenty-three; she ignored it because she didn’t know what to say. She noted she never felt compromised by someone in power, but the memory stayed with her.

The discussion moved to the MeToo movement. King expressed support but also concern that it could backfire on women if accusations are treated as automatic convictions without investigation. She and Apatow discussed the complexity of cases like Bill Cosby’s, where a person can be both a trailblazer and a criminal. King said, “Both things can be true,” and noted that in the Black community, there are so few symbols of pride that a fall from grace feels especially painful. Apatow acknowledged similar dynamics within the Jewish community, citing Harvey Weinstein.

King spoke about her love of breaking news and her show’s commitment to presenting facts without a partisan slant. She acknowledged that the Trump administration painted all mainstream media with the same brush, but she believed her audience trusts her to give them the straight story.

The pandemic weighed heavily on the conversation. King described the uncertainty as unlike any disaster she had covered—there was no clear beginning, middle, or end. She was in New York while her children were in Los Angeles and Oprah was in California, and she didn’t know when she’d see them again. This uncertainty made people crave connection, and King noted that meditation had become more popular as people sought to center themselves.

King credited Bishop T. D. Jakes for his common sense and Maya Angelou as a major influence. She recalled Angelou’s advice to respond to criticism with gratitude rather than whining, and her famous line about people remembering how you made them feel. King also shared personal anecdotes: she has never smoked pot (though Oprah has tried to get her to), and she got drunk once in high school at a Christian Youth Leadership Conference, which made her so sick she never drank again.

King grew up in Turkey from first grade to sixth grade, where her father was an electronic engineer with diplomatic status. She mentioned that some people speculated he was in the CIA, and she found a White House access card among his belongings after his death, but she never confirmed anything. Her mother denied it, though King remained curious.

The interview closed with King reflecting on fame. She noted that famous people often have the same insecurities as everyone else, and meeting Nelson Mandela was a highlight because he showed no bitterness despite his imprisonment. She also shared her persistence in securing interviews with Dave Chappelle and Bruce Springsteen, and her wish list now includes the Queen, Harry and Meghan, the pope, and Kim Jong-un.

Key Events

King explains O Magazine’s mission of personal growth and self-acceptance.
Discussion of social media’s negative effects and the lack of accountability online.
King recounts her psychology background and entry into TV news.
Detailed retelling of the R. Kelly interview, where she stayed calm and he sat back down.
King describes an early-career incident of sexual harassment from a camera guy.
Conversation about MeToo, Bill Cosby, and the idea that “both things can be true.”
King discusses her love of breaking news and her show’s factual approach.
Pandemic-related uncertainty and separation from family.
King shares advice from Maya Angelou and praises Bishop T. D. Jakes.
Personal stories: never smoking pot, getting drunk in high school, childhood in Turkey, father’s possible CIA connection.
Meeting Nelson Mandela and securing interviews with Dave Chappelle and Bruce Springsteen.
King lists her dream interview subjects.

Character Development

Gayle King emerges as a composed, introspective journalist who values preparation and empathy. Her handling of the R. Kelly interview shows her ability to remain unflappable under pressure, a skill she attributes to experience and intention. She is candid about her own vulnerabilities—the harassment she faced early on, her uncertainty during the pandemic, and her curiosity about her father’s secretive past. Her philosophy is grounded in personal responsibility and the belief that multiple truths can coexist. She is also self-aware about fame, acknowledging that even admired figures have insecurities.

Judd Apatow appears as a self-described “self-help freak” who is genuinely interested in how people navigate trauma and growth. He connects King’s experiences to broader cultural issues, such as algorithmic amplification of negativity and the complexity of separating a person’s legacy from their crimes. His questions reveal his own anxieties about the pandemic and his desire to find humor and connection in uncertain times.

Themes, Symbols, or Motifs

Personal Growth and Healing: The chapter opens with O Magazine’s mission and returns to the idea of wounded people trying to heal themselves and others.
Accountability vs. Empathy: King insists that while understanding someone’s past is important, it doesn’t excuse harmful actions.
The Duality of Truth: “Both things can be true” becomes a central motif, applied to Cosby, to MeToo, and to the complexity of public figures.
Social Media’s Corrosive Effect: Apatow and King agree that algorithms reward negativity and that social media lacks accountability.
Journalism Ethics: King emphasizes preparation, avoiding “gotcha” interviews, and presenting facts without partisan bias.
Human Connection: The pandemic highlights the importance of family and community, and King’s meditation practice reflects a search for inner peace.
Family Mystery: The possible CIA involvement of King’s father symbolizes the unknowable aspects of even our closest relationships.
Fame and Insecurity: King observes that famous people are not inherently different from anyone else, and that meeting heroes can be refreshing or disappointing.

Why This Chapter Matters

This chapter offers a rare, intimate portrait of Gayle King as both a journalist and a person. It humanizes a public figure often seen only through her professional role, revealing her personal struggles, her philosophical grounding, and her approach to difficult conversations. The interview also captures a specific moment in history—May 2020—when the pandemic had upended daily life and created widespread uncertainty. King’s reflections on connection, meditation, and the importance of treating others well resonate beyond the news cycle. For readers of Sicker in the Head, this chapter reinforces the book’s broader themes of mental health, resilience, and the search for meaning in chaotic times. It also provides a counterpoint to the often cynical world of media, showing that a journalist can maintain integrity and compassion while asking hard questions.

Study Questions and Answers

1. How does Gayle King’s preparation for the R. Kelly interview illustrate her journalistic philosophy?

King’s preparation involved studying Kelly’s past interviews and noticing that he tended to leave when upset. She used that knowledge to remain calm and non-confrontational, signaling through her body language that she wasn’t going anywhere. This approach reflects her belief that any question can be asked, but timing and delivery matter. She avoids “gotcha” interviews and aims to create space for subjects to speak, even when they are volatile.

2. What does King mean when she says “both things can be true,” and how does she apply this to Bill Cosby?

King uses the phrase to argue that a person can have a positive legacy—like Cosby’s role in breaking barriers for Black performers—while also being guilty of terrible crimes. She rejects the either/or framing that forces people to choose between honoring a symbol and acknowledging harm. This principle extends to her broader view of MeToo, where she believes accusations should be taken seriously but also investigated fairly.

3. How does the pandemic context shape the themes of this chapter?

The pandemic introduces a sense of uncertainty that King says is unlike other disasters because there is no clear endpoint. This uncertainty heightens her longing for family and her appreciation for human connection. It also makes her more open to spiritual practices like meditation and to the wisdom of figures like Maya Angelou, who encouraged gratitude over complaint. The pandemic thus amplifies the chapter’s focus on healing, resilience, and what truly matters in life.